Curse

Sli Ander · Aug 06, 2006, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Elitism seems to be a problem that everyone has with GW( and I'll assume its the same in other games) but nobody seems to say how to fix it, except to harp at the other side of the fence. So heres why I think Elitism is so obvious in Guild Wars.

1. The game is relatively new, so there isn't enough land to spread out all the people on. Therefore we see them more often(the "elitism jerks")

But that isn't a problem without these two unique features of Guild Wars.

2. Level cap at 20.
3. You can only carry 8 skills at a time.

The reason I think these two are the cause (the cause caused by the game itself, not players[thats another story entirely]) is that the skill cap causes people to focus on the skills you carry. In other games a level 50 can look at a level 20 and say "this person hasn't played as much as me, therefore I can A)help him out or B)not party with him". Because lvl 20 can be reached so quickly, people instead examine your skills to see how 'experienced' you are. People become 'experts' on areas by farming them repeatedly, and therefore certain skill standards are upkept by portions of the GW community for certain missions. This is where we can the 'elite jerks' that yell at or kick you because they don't like your skill selection.

*Note:Kicking excludes when you ask for a specific role to be filled, and they come with skills not able to fit that role. I.E., a smite monk claiming to be a healer to get in a group. On the other hand, kicking someone for carrying a skill you disapprove of is wrong. If I bring healing breeze, its probably for a reason. If you think that I'm wrong don't yell or kick me. Just ask why I bring it and make a suggestion for a better skill.

In PvP there is a certain compensation for this. Because you can jump in at level 20 and start fighting, there is less skill vs. time involved. Yes (to be good at it) you have to practice and/or read up on builds. But a couple weeks is better than a couple months of leveling up to 50 or 60. Thats the upside to the level cap and skill carry cap. The downside is that some people will be jerks because of the build you use. The same problem I put in the paragraph above.

In PvE ( I'm being more in depth here because I play it more) the same can happen with the high end missions. Due to the limited number of skills you can bring ( and here comes the point) the Community chooses to define character classes by specific rigid roles. If you're not a healer or a 55, then switch to one. If you're a mesmer in a mission where people don't think they 'need' a mesmer, its gonna be tough.
Each class has some tough situation in which they flourish. Warriors are meant for the front line, Monks have the most healing powers, Eles can nuke, etc...
But should we discriminate against non-55 smiters? Should necros be told to mm when they don't wish to? I could go on with examples, but I think you can see where I'm going. If it weren't for the focus on the limited skill bar we wouldn't define characters in this manner.

My Problem? I don't know how to fix this. There will always be people who think they know better because they use some special build to beat this mission 50 times, or obviously played longer/better cause you're such a noob... Yes, you can ignore people and not group with them if they're elitists who think you're 'noob' to play a smite monk or mesmer. But part of playing an online game is the community. If I want to play PvP, should I have to sit for hours attempting to get into a group because I don't have rank? If I want to go Smite the Army of Darkness in UW, should I be told to be a healer or leave? Yes I know thats what guilds are for. But what about the people who have trouble finding that perfect guild? Sometimes not all your guild members are online, or don't want to do that particular mission. There could be a million reasons why a guild couldn't help. Guilds are part of the solution. But I'm trying to get at the root of the problem, elitism itself.

We can't destroy the level limit. Then the problem would simply shift to whatever the new top level was. And the cycle would begin again.

We can't allow the attribute or skill switching to change drastically, because (not only would it destroy the uniqueness of GW)then a healer could walk into a mission, and halfway through switch to damage dealing. It would unbalance everything if each character strayed too much from their roles. Even worse, smiters might be stuck as smiters, and would be forever overlooked because of their inability to heal as effectively as a dedicated healer.
Perhaps we can broaden the skill selection, class selection, or what specific classes can do. I've made other posts about mesmers needing a bit of help in the aoe area, and monks needing more things to smite. But what does the whole game need to fix the attitude that one build/class/etc is better than another?

So its up to us, the GW community, to do something. We have to find a way that we can help everyone play(no more overlooked class/manner of playing class), to help silence the jerks which rampage through our happy gaming experience. Everybody should be able to have fun and play the way they want to play. But what are the ways to broaden that gaming experience?To destroy elitism without destroying the challenge of the game, or anyone's particular playing style?
So please post any comments on what could be done. And please no harping at each other about pvp/pve being worse than the other or the cause of this problem. Because that attitude is the point of this post.

/edit I realize that these things (elitism) occur outside the game, and that people don't exactly leave them at the door. We can't do much about name-calling except to chastise or ignore them. But I'm asking for ways to get around elitism. A way to bypass groups that want nothing but tightly controlled cookie cutter builds, without having to wait an hour for enough people willing to join you,etc.

dreamhunk · Aug 06, 2006, 09:08 PM // 21:08

people just want to have fun. mainly in the pve since. elite just reckthe game and fun for everyone.

Skawtt · Aug 06, 2006, 09:39 PM // 21:39

I mainly see elitist jerks in towns bragging about there weapons or there armor and calling people noobs.

While in a mission with a PuG I never really pay much attention to what skills other people are bringing. I worry about what im bringing or what build im going to run. If im on my necro I can easily change to what build the team needs MM/SS/Whatever.

The only times ive really said anything is when at the beginning of a mission some monk puts mending on me >< ...Take that crap off and save your energy dont waste a pip of regen for me just toss a heal my way if I need it.

I will help someone out if they ask. But mostly all I see nowawdays is Can someone give me 1k Can someone give me free Mats? Can someone run me to xx for free?

fiery · Aug 06, 2006, 09:42 PM // 21:42

I am level 99 and 20 skills, I look at you and your a noob. Level and 8 skills the problem, I think not. Let me say the famous WoW quote " go play WoW and grind for level 60".

Sli Ander · Aug 06, 2006, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Sorry about the length of the question, as I was attempting to show my train of thought and throw solutions I didn't think would work out the window automatically.
To respond to fiery, I think you missed the point. This is where I was going with this: Level cap low means more focus on skills(and more concentrated elitism because less levels), 8 skills means more focus on what skills you bring(i.e. builds), which in turn means elitism because your build is 'noobish'. But that is simply the most obvious example of elitism.
I also implicitly stated that expanding the level cap was not the problem. It just delays a solution and introduces more grind.

Count to Potato · Aug 06, 2006, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by fiery

I am level 99 and 20 skills, I look at you and your a noob. Level and 8 skills the problem, I think not. Let me say the famous WoW quote " go play WoW and grind for level 60".

Im pretty sure that quote should be reworded, its not grinding for it, its more like having no life with it, at least guildwars soem people think being lvl 20 is an achievement that took them 30 hours or less

Spike · Aug 06, 2006, 09:57 PM // 21:57

The problem is NOT caused by the lvl cap or the fact we can only take 8 skills. Its MUCH worse in wow where the level cap is 60 or eve where there is'nt one.

Most of the eliteism crap is in PVP.

The fact that in SOME missions certain builds and team set ups work better than others is NOT the players fault. Like I said in another post if you want to make an all mesmer or sin team go right ahead no one is going to stop you. But don't expect the VAST majority of people to invite you to thier 5 man SF or 12man Warren teams, if your NOT playing a build thats needed.

Cador · Aug 06, 2006, 10:05 PM // 22:05

There is elitism in PvP however that is in compensation to the amount of noobs in pvp(I do not mean unranked people) The fact is that some people roll up pre mades and think they are all set or they are simply to stupid to comprehend that when i say GLF Esurge mesmer, that means u better have the basic skills for an esurger, if u have a suggestion voice it ill consider it weigh it out and most ppl will let you try it.

I gather spike that you dont pvp or if u have it has been in RA or AB

Sli Ander · Aug 06, 2006, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

The problem is NOT caused by the lvl cap or the fact we can only take 8 skills. Its MUCH worse in wow where the level cap is 60 or eve where there is'nt one.

Most of the eliteism crap is in PVP.

The fact that in SOME missions certain builds and team set ups work better than others is NOT the players fault. Like I said in another post if you want to make an all mesmer or sin team go right ahead no one is going to stop you. But don't expect the VAST majority of people to invite you to thier 5 man SF or 12man Warren teams, if your NOT playing a build thats needed.

I know its not the players fault, thats why I suggested changes to the game itself. Even if I wish to make, say, an all-smite team. Do you realize how difficult it is to find another smiting monk?I'm not talking 55's here, just a bunch of regular smiters to make a full team. It's nigh impossible. These forums were the first time I've even seen evidence that other smiters existed.

And while I agree that people shouldn't expect to be invited into a group if they don't fill a role, but do you realize the number of times I have explicitly advertised myself as a smiter, and still been asked to switch to healer as soon as someone invited me? I'm asking for ways to change the part of the game that makes people think that way. I've enjoyed playing healer on some teams in TopK, but that doesn't mean I want to do nothing but heal.I can't make people change the way they play, some people just love bashing their problems away. I enjoy playing sneakily and avoiding mobs(i'm a monk, and I've learned what I can't handle).
How can we fix elitism without forcing people to stop using team builds or changing their play styles?

Sli Ander · Aug 06, 2006, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cador

There is elitism in PvP however that is in compensation to the amount of noobs in pvp(I do not mean unranked people) The fact is that some people roll up pre mades and think they are all set or they are simply to stupid to comprehend that when i say GLF Esurge mesmer, that means u better have the basic skills for an esurger, if u have a suggestion voice it ill consider it weigh it out and most ppl will let you try it.

I gather spike that you dont pvp or if u have it has been in RA or AB

The ability to create a Lvl 20 character has great uses, and helps the whole skill vs. time appeal of pvp. But it also allows a lot of people into a limited number of arenas, therefore increasing the elitist to non-elitist ratio, to put it politely.

Once again PLEASE DON'T TURN THIS INTO A PVE PVP FIGHT. Elitism may be more obvious in PvP because of the importance of particular builds, but it is pervasive throughout the entire game. Do you not realize how much flak smite monks, mesmers, and assassins recieve in Pve?

Spike · Aug 06, 2006, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Cador I don't pvp any more BECAUSE of the elistism in PVP. How are people EVER going to learn to pvp better if no one helps them and all they get is insults when they are'nt a perfect pvper form day 1.

Sil ander I don't think we can fix elitism, its just part of some peoples nature.

Monks are in such short supply in most places, people will invite any they see and then ask what they are after and if they can change if thier not whats wanted. Its been so bad at times. My e/mo has been asked to monk.

Amity and Truth · Aug 06, 2006, 10:27 PM // 22:27

In my humble opinion, it is not the game that is at fault. Nor is it a certain community. It's a huge problem of society and what we're experiencing in the game is nothing more but just the tip of the ice.
People are taught, from the moment they are born, that the most important thing in life is to be better than someone else. And they're trained in this mentality by such innocent things as Sport, Games and their toys. Everywhere they go the world offers them one simple clear and clean message "Be strong, or die".
Many young people strive to be better than others, simply because society tells them to. But as there can only be one strongest being there are all of a sudden quite a lot of social "losers". People that are simply not strong enough to be the best. The people which are stronger punish them for being weak, mentally, physically in every perverted way the human mind ever has thought of. Mankind simply is trained to feel the urge to prove themselves superior to other humans ever since its accidential creation.

Now add into the mix that the Internet is something new. Sort of like another dimension one that is without laws, without punishment, without paying for the consequences. And it is anonymous. It's a fricking wasteland straight out of one of those Post Nuclear Science Fiction Novels. Rule of Strength. Harassment, sexuality, violence, anger, lust for power all the suppressed feelings of a young being will now surface to adapt to the hostile wasteland.

People love the Wasteland, the internet is. It gives them the opportunity to wreak havoc whenever they feel like, they can vent their aggressions, they can annoy others and most important of them all... they can claim to be a superior human being without even having to provide proof.
So basically, the harsher the environment is. The more easy it is to put oneself above others, the more elitism will you have in a game. Nothing we can do about it, it's simply society. And it's a simply "suck it up or die" thing. Mankind likes it this way.
My point is proven by the fact that you will see a lot more elitism in Scenarios that incude some kind of semi pro-gaming. Competition. That's why you basically see the following sentence in many of the threads on GWGuru "PVE-Players all suck. PVP-Players are superior human beings, more intelligent, more skilled, more social, more powerful bla bla bla yadda yadda yadda". It's quite rare that you see it the other way around. It's no ones fault though, it's still education reacting to a competitive environment with the unresistable urge to place oneself above someone else.

Ulivious The Reaper · Aug 06, 2006, 10:58 PM // 22:58

I've seen warriors better than me using 1.5k droks armour, i'll take skill over elitism any day :|

makosi · Aug 06, 2006, 11:39 PM // 23:39

I don't know where people are getting the concept' skill' from in GW because its your 'skills' that are important moreso than 'skill'. Build Wars ftw.

Back on topic. Whatever you do and wherever you go in life there is some sort of Elitism. Take high school for example: The cheerleaders and 'jocks' are the elitists and the smart kids and musicians are the 'noobs'. No part of this game insights elitism... its part of human nature to yearn for superiority over others.

Disclaimer: I do not condone irrational/unecessary elitist behaviours which offend or disrupt others. ^

Gli · Aug 07, 2006, 12:02 AM // 00:02

I have mixed feelings about topics like this. Yes, elitism can be annoying, both PvE and PvP, but everyone has the right to decide who he wants to play with or not. No one is entitled to just join any group he wants. I know, it can take some effort to find people that share a more relaxed outlook on the game, but they're out there.

Having said that, I do think the game could be more accomodating to break the 'my way or the highway' mindset. PvE could do with a bit more randomization. Areas where spawns aren't exactly the same every visit would go a long way toward breaking the cookie-cutter mold.

Morganas · Aug 07, 2006, 12:04 AM // 00:04

I don't think that there is any elitism of the sort you describe at all in TA or GvG, or storyline pve. HA and high end pve is extremely closed minded, but considering their goals they have reason to be.

For TA, there's an awareness of those particular builds that really are inferior, that people have a tendency to play them anyways (i.e. mending wamos), and those will generally be frowned upon, but even in PUGs as long as you list your skills and explain how you plan to contribute to the team with them, people are generally understanding. Sometimes I've even seen whole teams reroll to make builds to complement "experimental" players, just because they want to see if it works.

As far as GvG goes, there's so much variation there that it's obviously not a set in its way format. Alot of guilds experiment alot in scrims, and if it works, they run it, regardless of whether the individual characters suit particular cookie cutter formats.

HA, the goal for alot of players is just fame farming, and farming is grueling, so they're only going to run what they know will require as little effort as possible, will win SOME of the time, and will have players available to suit the particular roles. If you're in a good guild, obviously this is not the case, but for PUGs it often is.

High end PVE is similar to HA, in that the goals are very specific, people want to get through as fast as possible to get their loot, and they want to run cookie cutters that everyone will know. If there's planning involved, it will only slow their farming.

What you see is not elitism, it's just people with narrow in game goals looking out for themselves.

Carl Butanananowski · Aug 07, 2006, 12:25 AM // 00:25

The only thing that really annoys me about elitism is the unwillingness to try new things. I can understand why people dont want to have to do Hells Precipise(sp) three times, it wastes everyones time.. while a cookie-cutter build could win it easily :/.

Even in GUILDS people are very unwilling to try new things, not because it will hurt the rating or whatever of the guild, but because, if it doesnt work, you just wasted everyones time. Atm Im trying to get my guild to try a Sin spike i thought of.. but i cant find 15 willing people for a scrim :/

Blah, i banter..

Don Zardeone · Aug 07, 2006, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Ok, I wrote some majorly huge essay then deleted it .... 6 times in a row.

I'm going to keep it short.

1. This problem did not exist (at such a huge level) among clans (or players) in the early days of clans.
2. This problem started occurring EVERYWHERE ever since education, worldwide, was getting modernised.
3. I've researched this and came to the conclusion that newgens (new generation of players who are aged 22 or less on this day) have had absolutley zero education in school. They learned nothing. Or wait...
4. They learned how NOT to do things. Individualisation, pride, sloth, gluttony, it's all in there. These people are incapable of cooperating with anything.
5. This affects the aged 22+ humans who are overwhelmed by the amount of stupid people in democratic countries where problems are often handled "democratically" as in, the morons who are in the majority, will win (not talking about usa or only usa, i'm global here) (I'm not against democracy, I'm only against it in small groups where a 2 vs 1 equals in the 1 killing the 2 because they're assholes)

Fixes:
1. Revert to "oldschool" education.
2. Introduce a single or up to three years forced armyduty.
3. Introduce uniforms EVERYWHERE (I mean, jobs, school, those things, or at least dresscodes)

Why does that work?
Explaining that would require me to keep typing for a few days but I've done enough research to be 9384835983757735% sure that I am correct.

Problem?
It is dangerous to be right when everyone else is wrong ='(

Optimizer · Aug 07, 2006, 01:11 AM // 01:11

That sounds like too much work.

I just combat the problem by being open to various styles of play in PVE (sorry, I don't play much PVP outside of ABs). I've led PUGs where there would multiple assassins, 2 Ritualists and only healing monk, multiple mesmers, etc. I don't force any group I form to fit any mold by profession unless I know a mission or a quest demands it.

But we're talking about attitudes and frankly I can't do much for other people's attitudes. But as I always say, a good player is better than a common build.

Carl Butanananowski · Aug 07, 2006, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Optimizer

A good player is better than a common build.

do you mind if i quote this? like.. in my signature.

EDIT: grr, RAWR @ disabled siggys.